Is this true or false? Notecard given to me claiming Maitreya is toxic to content creators. Incorrect?

I have no idea if this is true or not. It’s something that early on set my opinion against Maitreya (which I am now currently using).


This has been bothering me because I am hoping it is wrong.


In going through old outfits I had set up for Freya and seeing if I had a Maitreya version for the item, I found a curious notecard from a clothing maker in 2017 explaining why the outfit had no Maitreya sizes.

It’s now got me wondering if it’s true or not… so since this person made the notecard, and sent it out… here it is:

Hello i would like to explain to you, why i don’t support Maitreya lara any longer.

The Mesh Developer Kit is very bad. This means the Mannequin which is included in the Developer Kit for the 3d Programs is too big. And this means making items fit the way they should is very time consuming, slowing the whole creation process down and frustrates to a point where the creating is no fun anymore.

As a Maitreya User you might have noticed a lack on consistance in fit when it comes to Maitreya when it is not one of the HUGE stores like Cynfull or Blueberry. Those stores employ professionals which we, the smaller stores can not effort. Also Many stores do actually mesh their items on Belleza – because it just has the best resolution and definition. They mostly fit it afterwards to maitreya. This said. Belleza is what you are actually already wearing. It is just simply adjusted to Maitreya.

Also by signing a contract with Maitreya ( which you have to do to get their official Kit ) you lay a lot of restrictions upon yourself as a creator and designer.
One of those restrictions is, that you are not allowed to ever release a meshbody in Second life. Now we could say, PFF, there are already enough bodies,w ho needs those ? And they could be right BUT it shows how much of a monopolization is forced upon the grid by the Store named Maitreya.

Now we get to the design of the actual meshbody. I personally really despise Maitreya. It is not a body i would call beautiful. It lacks realism and knowledge of Anatomy. The arms and shoulders are bulky and fat. Ever wondered why you shoulders like the shoulders of someone working at a construction side for 40 years each day for 9 hours ? Thats not you. Thats the Lara Body.

Now to the Life of a Designer in SL who doesnt want to support Maitreya.

I often here, that people would actually WANT to change and get a Belleza Body. But they have so much Maitreya Exclusive. That is a point i do understand, but nobody expects people to trash those items nor to trash the Maitreya body. I am just convinced that it should be like a secondary body then a Primary one. You wanna wear your dead dollz dress today ? Wear Maitreya! But if you want to wear quality go with Belleza. i can’t stress this enough.

I tried to talk to the Owner of Maitreya like many people before more and it ended in a final of ” There will be no update on the Mesh Kit in any near future ” since she WOULDNT KNOW what she could make EVEN !!!!! better. Also she became very rude and called me High Schooler for saying MANY designers agree and didnt give a list of all the names. ( who would have probably been kicked from official Maitreya Lara Designers groups like i was kicked from the Flickr group after i tried to talk to her πŸ˜€ )

A while ago i was INVITED TO THE BOUNDBOX. And i was very excited. I worked 2 weeks on my Item and even learned a new Program to offer the best possible item. After rigging to Belleza and making the belleza Sizes i ran into the Problem, that NO MATTER what i did, the mesh looked horrible on Lara. It was lumpy and too big and yet the body managed to poke through. After 5 hours of weightpainting i abandoned the idea and talked to the Founders of the Box. Who instantly swapped me out with someone else since ” Maitreya is a Requirement” – What this means – It is okay to do Maitreya Only Itens – but it is not okay to do BELLEZA ONLY SIZES.

This supports the Maitreya Monopol even more. And the last store who tried to force a monopol upon the grid was TheMeshProject.

After the Boundbox Incident i decided of officially put up a fight against the forceful demand of Maitreya Sizes.

I hope i could make it clear why this all happens.
If you are interested in another body and want to listen to the opinion of my very small self – Try belleza Isis or Freya:

can be found here : [link to Belleza store]

I wish you all a very good time and never do things that make you feel bad and frustrate you. Life is short and you deserve to be happy πŸ˜€

Is there truth to this, in part or in whole?

These points:

  1. Maitreya is bad to model for – making it very hard to make items fit right. So clothing makers usually make for another body, then adjust to Maitreya afterwards.
  2. Maitreya requires people agree to never put out their own mesh body
  3. Maitreya has bad anatomy – “The arms and shoulders are bulky and fat”


I know number 3 is true. But it’s true of almost every mesh body, because it’s true of the system avatar. If you ever wear something not rigged for Belleza on Belleza you will notice the arms of your clothing are not in the same spot as the arms of Belleza. This was because Belleza “tried” to fix this issue, with partial success… but I long suspected it actually made Belleza the harder body to rig for…

Number 3 is especially true if a modeler starts by working with something like a body from Daz3d that has a proper ‘matched to real life’ skeleton.

Daz3D is for art, and they have revised their base skeleton many times now over the years. Everytime technology allows them to go one step further… well, they wait for the sales of the old body to slow, and make you buy the upgrade at full price… BUT… that upgrade is also always a massive leap forward in reflecting good anatomy… SL by contrast, is a 3D skeleton made in 1999, 4 years before SL even went live, and on technology much more limited at the time, and which looks like it was a bad reflection of anatomy even back then.

So I kind of expect The first claim to be true of all bodies, to varying degrees, but extremely so if a content creator didn’t start in SL.

And I feel it’s important to note this. Because it CANNOT be blamed on Maitreya… it’s just a flaw of SL’s Skeleton. LLs has not been willing to do what Daz3d does – put out a new skeleton and break all old content. I can understand why even as I wish that they would despite what it would do to my inventory… I think most people would revolt over it…


As for the other 2 claims, I have no idea. They are completely outside my area of knowledge.


Number 1… is Maitreya particular poorly set up compared to other bodies? I don’t know. I don’t have the foggiest idea how I would even begin to know… I suspect it is highly subjective too. What would be the way to know? Weight maps? Rigging? I don’t know… I don’t see it as the important issue though.


Number 2 however… leaves a very sour mood if it’s true. That’s the one I really am curious about. I suspect no one would be willing to answer it openly under their brand name… but I’m hoping to find out if it’s true or false nonetheless.

It’d be very easy to prove false: is there any mesh body maker out there in SL that ALSO makes clothes that fit Maitreya and use the logo that says something fits Maitreya on their products? Find me just one… and we know the second claim is wrong.


Ideally I’d like to feel morally OK being a fan of multiple mesh body creators… so I hope the middle claim up there is wrong…


What I’m looking for… basically… is to see if I have a ‘comeback’ against the maker of this notecard and any similar statements I may see being made… or if I have to begrudgingly accept their point. I’d prefer the comeback, if it’s out there…


Free Maitreya Proportionate Kit released

Years ago I put out kits for the standard sizes, and then later for Belleza’s Freya and Isis.

Well, now that I’ve started using Maitreya, I’m putting out something I’ve been repeatedly asked to make, a kit for Maitreya:


This is basically a repeat of my kits for Belleza, but with a shape made to try and get Maitreya into proportion. You might notice that the arm length is not perfect – it simply isn’t possible to make the arms long enough without giving your female avatar the shoulders of a male NFL linebacker… but you can get ‘close enough to not notice without trying to notice’… and so that’s what I went for, because the linebacker shoulders would have just looked really weird…



Second Life Mesh Avatar Bosom Comparison

Your avatar’s bosom is a very personal thing. Somewhere that gets a lot of attention and has a lot of self-identity wrapped around feeling naturally you. Only makes sense that getting a mesh body that looks “right” here can be very important.

This is also the area where the different mesh bodies seem to have the greatest amount of variation between brands. I have discarded more choices over how they conveyed this part of the anatomy than any other area. If it doesn’t look ‘right’, if it doesn’t move ‘right’ with avatar physics, it just isn’t me.

I’ve taken comparison screenshots of the bosoms of the Second Life fit-mesh avatars I own from the front and side, at the sizes of 30, 50, 75, and 100 in both ‘breast size’ and ‘buoyancy’.

I think it helps illustrate how different bodies perform.

This may help some in making choices between different mesh bodies.

Here you can see which of them ‘break’ at the larger extreme, as well as just how large each can get. I find that all but Belleza and The Mesh Project (TMP) break in the side view at much of these size ranges. And only those two brands plus Banned can handle size 30. While only those first two brands plus SalinA can handle size 100 (though SalinA at size 100 is comic-bookish, it still holds together the shape of its proper ‘design theory’).

All but the TMP one use an old freebie texture I used to give out, that is, well, too low quality to even be a freebie in today’s SL. TMP doesn’t allow people to make appliers for it unless they get on a very select approved list – no Omega system… so I had to use one of their appliers. It may look better, but that should be a massive red flag as it means you cannot use most skins you might want to use.

I’ve done the cheap texture for three reasons:

  • First in that I fully own it so I could hand it out to all my alts and anyone else who wants it for testing – letting me get a uniform look across all but TMP.
  • Second this texture doesn’t have anything in it to enhance the look of the bosom, so you can compare the the shape of the mesh itself, and not the tricks we all use to make it look better.
  • Third because it is not as ‘nice looking’ I’m hoping to avoid some of the common issues with SL Men who… have a very notable inability to control their own behavior upon seeing visuals of women… (as I noted recently in a post on my flickr, since rejoining SL Nudism, my mute list has been steadily gaining more and more male entries). Comments to this article from people who lack self-control will be moderated.

I’m putting this below a ‘fold’ so that people need to click in as the content is even more ‘in your face’ that the visuals in many of my other posts.

See below for some thumbnails, click them for the full sized images on flickr (because my blog’s stylesheet forces all images to no wider than 650 pixels).

New fullperms Freebies out: Belleza Freya and Isis Proportionaate Shapes and Physics Kits

I know its been a year since I’ve updated my blog and I’ve still yet to get around to doing new reviews of mesh bodies…

However that said, I’ve put out two new freebies:

One for Belleza Freya:

And one for Belleza Isis:

Please go get a copy, and hand it out to people as desired.


This kits include, as pasted from the notecard included with the kit:

3 Shapes for Belleza Freya or 3 Shapes for Belleza Isis
– They vary in bosom size, and with each of those I’ve also adjusted the butt, saddle bags, and some muscle.

1 “Zion Kitty Multi-Posing Stand”
– This will give you some handy poses for editing yourself or worn attachments.

5 Props to wear on “Avatar Center”
– These will let you see your proportions, handy if you change these shapes or make your own proportionate shapes. As long as you stretch these uniformly, they can be used to tell if an adult avatar is proportionate regardless of how tall or short it is. They will work regardless of the gender of the avatar.

3 Physics Files
One for normal clothing, one for more firm clothing that holds body motion in place, and one for nude, bikini, and the like unconstrained motion. These will need adjustment to your personal preferences, but should be useful for getting started.

Finally there is a long winded notecard with the instructions above (in more detail) and a list of what shape dials can be modified without losing proportions.

Some tips from that notecard:
When adjusting your own shape, these are the shape dials you can mess with without messing up the proportions this kit helps with:

All dials from:

These individual dials:

Forehead Angle
Brow Size
Upper Cheeks
Lower Cheeks
Cheek Bones

Chin Angle – somewhat… it will slightly change your head size. But minor tweaks are OK.
Jaw Shape
Chin Depth
Jaw Angle – Same issue as Chin Angle
Jaw Jut
Chin Cleft
Upper Chin Cleft
Chin-Neck – Same issue as Chin Angle

Torso Muscle – this will slightly effect the way we test body width, but it is safe to ignore that impact.

Neck Thickness
Breast Size
Breast Buoyancy
Breast Cleavage
Love Handles
Belly Size
Leg Muscles – Won’t effect my “tests” by extreme values “in isolation” are not proportional.
Hip Width – Won’t effect my “tests” by extreme values “in isolation” are not proportional.
Butt Size
Saddle Bags – Won’t effect my “tests” by extreme values “in isolation” are not proportional.
Knee Angle

Foot Size – this dial doesn’t work on the Belleza Body. The Belleza Body’s foot is about 1/4th of a toe too big for these shapes, perfect for an avatar about 1-3″ inches taller, and too small for any shape over that height. But at the height of this kit’s shapes, any issues are so small you won’t notice them unless purposefully testing them like I did for making this kit. I didn’t even know this until I prepared this notecard… In other words, don’t worry about it. πŸ™‚

Any “male specific” dials are safe to adjust.

If you adjust any other dials, you will need to use the props or a healthy pile of rulers to retest your proportions. πŸ™‚

You have my permission to give the contents of this kit out, include it in things, use it as a base for your own shapes (free or commercially sold) and so on. No need to ask. I want to help as many people as possible get their shape proportionate and yet also customized to their self-identity, so I’m all for seeing the items in this spread around.

So not only do you have my blessing to hand this out, but I’m hoping you do so.

And so yeah… I’m a BIG fan of mesh bodies. It might be obvious that a year after my last review, I’ve now since settled on the Belleza Mesh avatar, specifically the Freya body, but both bodies are very high quality. The shapes will more or less work on most bodies – and the included props should help you fix any lingering issues.

Why does this kit have so much more “loot” than my kit for standard sizes? Because that was made in 2011 and this is made in 2015, and I’ve learned a few tricks to make measuring proportions easier. πŸ™‚

Do Disproportionate Avatars Lead ‘Normal People’ To Leave SL?

EDIT: This is about proportion. Not height save for where it is disproportionate. If you think this is a ‘height police’ article, try to remember the last time someone was denied access to a venue for being too tall. Some folks are using that term, ‘height police’, backwards.

The basic question is: Do the severely disproportionate avatars that make up the majority of Second Life create a low-key alienation that causes people, especially newbies, to leave SL?

In an article on building by scale or eyeballing, the origins of the distorted and wacky stretched avatars in SL came up.
(Ok, the commenter just made a comment about the height, and Penny’s argument that smaller avatars get back more land, then linked to me, so it showed up on my referrers this morning.)

I believe LLs didn’t set the default height – residents did. I could be wrong because if Ruth is a giant, then the blame might rightly be on LLs.

We -CAN- blame them for the horrible anatomy, and the sliders all having the wrong ranges (such as female arms only being normal at 90+). While we can credit them for having given us so much amazing customization, they did it with notable flaws. At the time they started SL, I was in the Poser community and there was keen awareness of anatomy in 3D models. There were a -LOT- of people putting out human meshs. Some for free. Most of them would have -LOVED- to pad their resumes with “I’m the person who made that avatar for SL.” But somehow LLs got a base avatar made by someone who clearly flunked Mrs. Frankenstein’s 7th grade art class. Hmmm…. or maybe that’s the one art class they passed…

As to freakish heights and all the distorted shapes in SL… We residents can hold the blame for that.

People lacking a meter on the editor, and being new and so not knowing to rez a prim. Plus, not knowing what metric means… (my assumptions) people just got it wrong.

My guess is they wanted to be ‘big and cool’ so they slid the dial all the way up. Next person comes along and wants to be ‘bigger and more bad’ so matches, and then slides up the leg slider as well…

And so on, until we hit today were half these avatars have all the dials that can add to height maxed out.

The end result is all of the Baketballer T-rex avatars we have in SL now. Male and females. 99% of them have T-rex arms. If you’re a female avatar above 5’7″ or so, it is impossible to -NOT- have T-rex arms.

But that was 2003, this is 2012. No excuses left. Yet “professional” shape makers are the absolute WORST people in SL at making shapes. The more expensive the shape, the more horrid the anatomy. Want a good super looking and amazing shape? Go grab a rezzday noob, put them in front of Penny’s or my proportion guide (or pad your results and make them read both), then take the result. It’ll be better than 90% of the grid. Even if its tall. :p

Ok… but we know that won’t happen… we have what we have, and it looks horrible and jarring to the eyes.

The alienation issue:
Anyone used to looking at real life art, anatomy, or even with a good eye for visual composition will notice this and end up a bit alienated in SL.

Sometimes I suspect the reason so many people in SL have strange personality quirks is that “normal folks” find SL visually jarring due to how distorted the avatars are. :p
– They see it, but aren’t trained to recognize it, so it gives them a reverse-uncanny-valley effect of alienation, and they don’t realize how easy it is to correct, so they leave after a bit proclaiming other reasons like “SL plays weird.”

We have even Phillips Rosedale claiming we’re all a bunch of sad pathetic freaks. Ok I exaggerate – but his comment was not exactly stellar… And he’s also tried to say SL is successful, but we users have no imagination.

– If we try to parse that out of the way tech geeks speak, which tends to be harsh, blunt, and more critical than they intend (if a tech geek thinks something is mildly dull, they will call it pathetic. Very common among them to over-criticize. You might see me doing that here, and realize that I’ve been working with tech geeks for almost 3 decades now… it rubs off).

What we might end up with is that he thinks SL’s users are a little off from the range of normal. But we also desperately want to be normal. Ie: We’re not proud of what we are.
– But because we have a distorted sense of things, maybe a lot of SL users really -CAN’T- see that their avatars look freakish (see also).

A friend of mine with very strong aspergers has tried to be an artist a few times – but the work always comes out surreal, taking my eye to point out why others are not seeing what was intended. On the other hand some of the most amazing art in history was made by people who were not ‘handicapped’, but actually deranged.
– SLs users are not insane. Well… most of them are not. But they are ‘special people.’ And not in the way your kindergarten teacher meant.

There are a lot of extreme individualists here, A lot of people with anger issues, and a lot of people with extremely strong preferences for things “polite society” looks strangely upon.

So now, my giant leap in logic is to assume this comes out in the shapes of avatars. Or more precisely, the inability to see when the shape is distorted and “wrong” on a scientific, anatomical level. People with a level of disconnect with socialization, end up less able to see when something which is a social cue is off-kilter. It doesn’t alienate them the same way it alienates “the masses.”

SL is a surreal freakshow to walk through most of the time. And I’m not talking about the art builds. But normal everyday everywhere SL. Its a freakshow looking at the tall spindly avatars with skinny unreal frames and giant butts, frowns, fish-lips, and so on.

I suspect this is very off-putting to so-called “normal” folks.

As long as we have these freakish avatars there’s visual alienation going on in SL. And not talking about the furries here… I’m talking about the Fashionistas. The 7-foot tall legs up to the sky but skinnier than a pencil with a rear end the size of Texas…

Consider that slight high pitched whine coming out of electronics when something in the frequency is just a tad off. Over a few hours of sitting around it, you can get a headache, and then you start to get moody, you start to lose focus on what you were up to, and maybe you end up leaving or not getting something done, or having an argument with someone there… and while you think it was because of what they did, or because you didn’t sleep well, or you had other things on your mind… it all came back to that little whine jolting you slightly out of your comfort zone.

People can look at furries, aliens, animals, cartoon characters, and so on – and accept its different and -MEANT TO BE DIFFERENT-. They then jump into or away from it or don’t care. But when they look at something meant to be identifiably human and alike to them, but its got this ‘low key something is off’ about it. Something they can see, but lack training to explain…
– They get tossed out of their comfort zone. Over time the annoyance builds up, and then they give up.

Having tried some MMOs with bad 3D models before, and being slightly art-trained, I’ve a keen sense for when “the look isn’t right” and knowing why. Most people can get the first half of that – feel its not right. But not the why. But I’ve seen some things rapidly lose their audience because the visual was not right. Other things may have subpar content, but capture amazing audiences because the visual is tight and iconic.

SLs visual is off.

The anatomy is so poor, and the avatars so often off… and I suspect this is one major and yet largely unrecognized reason for the poor retention of new users.

But the solution (assuming you believe my idea is somewhat correct)… that’s going to take one person at a time, until a critical mass is reached. And its unlikely to occur anytime soon.

If you start with good body proportions:
literally -EVERYTHING ELSE- just falls into place.

  • Animations from motion capture work better (but those made inside of SL with anypose work worse).
  • You get more land usage back
  • Your mesh costs less Land Impact when scaled down
  • Your avatar starts to feel more ‘real’ looking and so more comforting, even when its a furry.
  • You get to lecture people about not being a child avatar. :p
  • You stop alienating the noobs, newbs, and others around you with your wacky anatomy. :p

Mesh clothes don’t care if you’re tall or short, thick or thin. They care about stretch of bust-waist-hips

Sept 18, 2015 Edit: Obviously fitmesh bodies are the clothing made for them are an exception to this. As to regular fitmesh on the default avatar – for some reason I have as yet been unable to find any that actually fits…

I keep seeing this over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, again… πŸ™‚

Something like this:

The […] standard sizes are ridiculous. Oddly, they seem to have decided that [large are fat][small are skinny][etc]. I wonder if those who created the β€œstandards” ever [assorted complaints]

This is because the person concerned is reading a word the way say, men use it when they shop in the real world.

Mesh clothing works a little more like a lot of T-Shirts do, and a lot of women’s cloths. Where a size small means you’re skinny, and a size large means you really don’t need to stop at Burger King on the way home tonight.

Think of it like this, using the standard sizes:

XXS: Michael Jackson would have done a concert to feed you.
XS: You look thin
S: You’re fit.
M: You shop in the plus size section.
L: You have reserved seating at the local Fried Chicken joint.

And just bump those one position for men, since male STandard sizes go from XS to XL. Male XL is basically female L.

You could still be taller than Abe Lincoln, or Shorter than Mini-Me. It just don’t matter.

Look at the standard sizes program, notice how it only seems to care about a few certain dails:

Body Fat
Torso Muscle
Breast Size
Love Handles
Belly Size
Leg Muscle
Butt Size
Saddle Bags

Body Fat
Belly Size
Torso Muscle
Love Handles
Leg Muscle
Butt Size
Saddle Bags

Notice what’s not in there?

Height. Having T-Rex arms or legs. Your neck. Your head. Your ‘thickness’ dial.

Why? Cause mesh doesn’t care. These are scale dials, or for the head – would not be important unless you wanted to buy a mesh ski-mask to go rob the local stop-n-rob in Bay City (hey I own that shop…)

There are only two dials that matter for mesh that are -NOT- in the lists above; Breast Buoyancy and Cleavage. If you don’t know why – you’ve never touched real boobies… πŸ™‚

So if you’re tall and thin, and you looked at Standard Sizes and thought “this is broken”… go try the XXS or XS size. That’s probably you.

Mesh fits a -LOT- more people than some think. Many who feel it doesn’t fit them are in fact within the zone of commonly used settings.

The deformer won’t help these folks. If they grab a ‘large’ mesh and deform it to their tall but thin avatar – it will be a mess of nasty triangles poking out. They need a small mesh, because they’re thin.

Some folks waiting for the deformer, will be in an EVEN WORSE MESS once it gets here, because they “never read the manual.” These folks just need to learn what mesh does effect, and then they can find existing items that are close. And the deformer will just take that close and get closer. It won’t turn a circle into a square folks – it will take a square and bevel it.

I’ve relented and put up a shape for sale in Second Life – Proportionate Woman in Standard Sizes – a package of 5 customizable shapes ideal for use with mesh clothing.

I done gone and make a shape for sale in SL. Yeah… one that’s not a freebie.

I’ve written many times about my opinions that selling shapes is a bit… tacky… given that its just dials…

But years and years of time in SL and I keep seeing avatars with poor proportions. Putting up a guide has helped some. Guides from others have had an impact as well. But there are still a lot of people who cannot get the anatomy down right.

Add to this the growing prevalence of mesh clothing, and a -LOT- of people are having trouble fitting into new outfits / getting outfits to fit them. Publishing the numbers for ‘standard sizes’ hasn’t been enough there either it would seem.

So I decided to take two issues and put them together. Meet two goals in one step.

Make a series of shapes that are both proportionate to proper anatomy, AND meant to fit the popular ‘standard sizes’ now cropping up in mesh clothing.

The result is this:

This is a ‘cleaned up’ version of the product image, you’ll have to go to marketplace, or my shop inside of Second Life to see it in full. I need to check the TOS on wordpress to see how I can manage to put up the proper image. On the marketplace entry you can also see previews of all 5 shapes. The same was done with the box its sold from in my shop – a big cube, though I had to put one of them on the bottom that sits on the ground…

Here’s how I describe it:

All 5 standard sizes included: Large, Medium, Small, Extra Small, Extra Extra Small.

This is meant to be a series of modifiable shapes to help with getting a naturally proportionate adult woman’s avatar, which can be used with mesh clothing built for the popular ‘standard sizes:

The shapes began by making a proportionate 5’5″ tall woman using this guide:

The adjustments for standard sizes were then added in for:
Body Fat, Torso Muscle, Breast Size, Love Handles, Belly Size, Leg Muscle, Butt Size, and Saddle Bags.

Using this shape will allow your avatar to perform motion capture dances and animations much more smoothly, as the proportions fall within the realm of actual human possibility. You will be closer to the real world dancer used to create those motions, as well as closer to where the joints of the Second Life female mesh are intended to bend and morph with movement.

I do recommend that the first thing you do upon applying this shape is go into edit appearance and make some slight facial adjustments so you can be sure to be your own unique self. Save that new altered appearance under a different name so you can have a backup (and in case you alter it before reading this, the package comes with a backup copy).

If you’re an advanced user, or already have a face on a shape you like, you can copy the settings for your eyes, ears, nose, mouth, and chin into one of these shapes to keep a look that is you.

For head settings, you can copy in your settings on face shear, forehead angle, brow size, upper cheeks, lower cheeks, and cheek bones – and this will not alter your proportions.

I recommend not adjusting hand size. But foot size can be altered when wearing shoes.

– Pussycat Catnap

I’m charging $L150.

That’s more than 0, but I hope its still within reason for what goes into perfecting a shape. This is the result of my months of tweaking to get proportions right and attractive on my own avatar, the development of my proportions guide, readjusting that when mesh came out, and again when the standard sizes appeared.

Its copy / mod. So you can apply your own facial features to be you. The face used for it is -NOT- the one I use for myself. It was made to be attractive but not special – something people could work from rather than stay on.

Its a bit of an experiment for me to see a shape as something worth charging for. But I think I’m erring on the right side of things here with a low price for a package of 5 shapes.

Standard Sizing Package For mesh Clothing Design; Good or Bad Idea, or a Bit of Both?

Still need to do some edits to this… There’s a lot of argument (hardly debate, more rantish most of the time) against the ideas of standard scales and proportions for avatars. Folks often pick a horridly distorted shape, or make one for sale; and then become attached to defending that choice when made aware of its problems. Others choose a ‘fun-house mirror look’ on purpose, for effect – but these folks tend to actually know what they’re looking at, and have purposeful distortions designed for a specific intent.

Various arguments have formed over what can be done, or even if anything should be done, to address this.

Mesh now complicates the whole feud – due to the lack of its ability to ‘auto fit’ some shape dials, while perfectly matching others… Or in short; mesh will auto size itself to any height, limb length, or body width. But if your ‘bust-waist-hips’ fail to match the model used to make the mesh clothing, you’re out of luck.

Go shopping for mesh clothes and you’ll discover that this is rapidly dissolving into exactly the chaos people predicted when they warned of the problems of Linden Lab not including a deformer… There’s a motley variety of dimensions to clothes on the market, and the labels are near meaningless. Small from brand A is ‘the fat lady sings’ in the eyes of brand B… And even if two brands match for waist and hips, they might have very different ideas of bust…

I’ve read a little bit on the idea of starting a standard, and have been somewhat critical of it in past topics. Still not convinced, for some reasons noted below. But it also may be the only real solution we have unless and until Linden Lab decides to grace us with the “gift” of including the code community members had to fund a third party contractor former Lab employee to make without any guarantees it would even be adopted… That deformer… the sort of thing that really should have been a ‘cannot ship mesh without’ line in the sand element. This is the kind of lack of core feature that in most development communities, management should have laid down the law and put people’s jobs on the line to get in there before Mesh was released.

I’m ranting…

Ok, so, the above in mind, I stumbled across something interesting last night while looking for a completely different thing on Marketplace (I was looking for an SL version of a Bobo Shanti turban hat for a female Rastafarian – which is NOT those touristy hippie tam things – and that somehow landed me here after giving up on search and just hitting a few random browse buttons.)

Someone on marketplace is attempting to develop a standard sizes fashion system. 5 sizes based on these dimensions:

Body Fat: 11
Torso Muscle: 38
Breast Size: 58
Love Handles: 31
Belly Size: 6
Leg Muscle: 56
Butt Size: 44
Saddle Bags: 36

Body Fat: 7
Torso Muscle: 35
Breast Size: 52
Love Handles: 28
Belly Size: 3
Leg Muscle: 50
Butt Size: 38
Saddle Bags: 33

The ‘package’ is a freebie with 5 shapes, that I assume have those numbers alongside the other values – the notion being that you just need to stay close to the dimensions here and any mesh clothes made for it will fit you.

It also comes with a long notecard explaining the objectives of the project, which seems a very noble goal. Some anticipated concerns are answered, such as ‘what if my shape doesn’t match these numbers’.

Finally, it has a download link to a zip file of some mesh objects – bodies to load into a 3D application to use for building clothes to match.
– I need to learn how one takes the SL avatar mesh out of SL and into a 3D app, to see how this part was done.

– The problem is they have 3 sizes under M, and only 1 above it; which is way above it. Some of the reviews on Marketplace have slammed the project for this. I would say it needs at least 1 more size in between M and L.

Note how the dimensions are basically bust-waist-hips related. Not height. Also not ‘Thickness’. That’s because mesh doesn’t care about height or limb length or avatar thickness; it rescales to those automatically, but not to these other things.

But it is missing cleavage which is extremely important. That said, its something that in RL adjusts depending on what you wear anyway, so no one has any business complaining a clothing item fails to match their cleavage setting, unless they’ve never seen a real woman’s body. πŸ˜‰
– Honestly no ‘breast’ setting should seen as something to get attached to. Its the nature of wearing or not wearing clothes that it ‘mashes up’ the soft tissue there. Folks just need to get used to changing the dials for that part of the body to fit their outfit, because anytime you put something on in RL, that’s exactly what happens to you.

The standard sizes ‘team’ claims to have surveyed 500 female avatars, but I see no link to a blog or to the survey for it to be checked for accuracy. While 500 is a valid sample size (anyone who has actually studied polling at a university level knows this) – the question that is more important is how were they selected… Again, never saw any forum post or group notice or blogs announcing it. But maybe I just missed them. So the product should link to them.

Curiously M and S are very similar to my own dimensions for those parts.


Body Fat: 3
Torso Muscle: 37
Breast SIze: 50
Love Handles: 29
Belly Size: 0
Leg Muscles: 50
Butt Size: 45
Saddle Bags: 30
– So I’m going to test some items made with this system and see how well it works for me.

I’m also wondering now if my avatar has a bit of a ‘bubble butt’ on other people’s screens… πŸ™‚

Almost every shape setting not listed above (again except for cleavage) DOES NOT MATTER for mesh. This means two people can be the same “size” on this system but actually have completely different ‘shapes’.

I’m also of the opinion that for standard sizes they should have used dimensions from the real life fashion industry for some top brands, and not SL. Second Life avatars are notorious for being deformed monstrosities… πŸ™‚ Something to help people look better would be good.

Something like perhaps, a Proportion guide, if not fashions with sizes based on the variety real life fashion designers contend with.

Addendum from a comment I left on the nwn blog:
SL of a year from now will likely be something very alien to the SL of today. Mesh frees up a lot of past limits.

Right now folks are paying most of their attention to clothes and avatars, because that’s “sexy”.

Things like tears, ‘male bits’, hair, feet, tails, ears, and so on will bring dramatic changes even for ‘non-furries’.

But the big shock is going to come when things that you rez on the land get a serious looking at – since those need to consider prim cost, and the prim cost of a mesh is set by its -SIZE- when rezzed.

The smaller you make it, the less prims it uses.

And that will cycle us right back into discussions about things for avatars: since mesh items worn on avatars -AUTO- scale up or down regardless of avatar scale – the need to be the size the item was made for now no longer exists (you just need to have the bust-waist-hips it was made for).

– And that too will go away if we either adopt some standards like this project, or Qarl’s code makes it in. Hopefully Qarl’s code will make it in.

But do get ready to make your avatar smaller… because pretty soon that’s going to be coming up as a hot topic again when this discovery of how size affects prim cost becomes more widespread. I predict lots of flame wars, a few accusations of ‘techno-communist-child-avatar-agendas’ and other irrational insanity… but once people realize they can wear all their mesh clothes on any size, many will likely just go with the size that lets them have the most prims on their land – not for the reasons of scale so often advocated in past, but simply so they can more fully fill up things like the space of a linden home.

Mesh scaling to reduce prim cost – smaller scale in SL really is better now

Today’s blog gets right to the core of all the debates about scale in Second Life.

The ‘Resource Cost’ of mesh items appears to be directly connected to their -size- and not just complexity. The smaller the item you rez, the less it will cost.

This is something I’ve been noticing the more Mesh objects I get on my land.

From houses to furniture to plants to… whatever… the trend seems the same. I’m going to illustrate it with a dramatic example.

The LAQ Decor 100% Mesh Cottage:

I took this house and scaled it down to work for a ‘to scale avatar’ – making the doorway entrance 2.2 meters in clearance (the prim says 2.3, but it clears 2.2). Fitting a 7’2″ person.

Standard door size in the USA is 36″ x 80″, or 2.03m tall, so this new ‘smaller scale’ is still big. At 7’2″, it is basketball player breezing through in comfort.

Originally the house was 76 prims:

And that doorway was a good 3 meters. Fit for a giant at 9’10”. Just to give you an idea, that is -TALLER- than the Na’vi in the movie Avatar.

Scaling it down reduced the cost to 45 prims:

That’s a savings of 31 prims. NOT a trivial amount. One tiny corner of the floor went phantom, so I had to add one prim more in by putting in a floor. But convex hull linking that floor prim to another prim on my land got its cost right back (In fact 4 prims linked in a convex hall for some walls and platforms, came to 2 at convex hull).

This makes a POWERFUL argument in favor of scaling down builds in second life, and by extension, scaling avatars down to a ‘to-scale’ size, to take advantage of these smaller builds.

Those 31 saved prims can fit a lot of furniture. I could fit my entire mesh living room into that budget 3 times.

Especially when the mesh recliner chair given out by LAQ Decor -also- reduced in prim cost when I scaled it down to a human-sized avatar.

In scaling this house there were two problems. Two prims had a face at a size of 0.01 – the smallest allowed in Second Life. I had to find them (individually selecting every prim until I knew which ones were this size), and then make that one face larger (I chose 0.1 arbitrarily), and then rescale. They were transparent prims so them getting distorted was not an issue. Normally when I do this after rescaling I go back to those prims and make that one side 0.01 again.

Here they are:

(I need to rescale these images, they’re kind of big…)

This scaling down of course will only work on mod items. So make sure to avoid no-mod mesh if you want to be able to manage your prim cost.

Really you should never buy no-mod items anyway. Especially for things rezzed on your land that you will likely want to edit and adjust over time as you gain experience in Second Life, and a sense of personal virtual style.

The LAQ Decor house had to be mod, it was in a rez-box. If you pay attention to my screenshots above you’ll see I was selecting 4 objects. The house is not all liked up. This is common for houses – a smart buyer can ensure a mod-able build by buying things sold in a rezzing system like this.

To resize it I selected all of the prims and just chose the stretch option, then stretched it down with my avatar standing in the doorway until it felt like the relationship between the two resembled me and my RL doorway. Then I walked inside and stood next to the windows. BUT my avatar is 5’4″ or 5’6″ – not 8-feet like some you’ll see in SL. It helps to scale down your avatar first, so you can then eyeball everything else for your chosen dimensions.

Getting good Body Proportions in Second Life

Prelude: It is all about you, and what makes you happy.

At the end of the day the shape you end up with must be one that makes you happy and feels like your ‘fantasy self’. You will be looking at this ‘freak of an avatar’ every single time you log in… so it needs to be your freak out, and not anybody else’s.

That is why I feel it is super important for people to make their own shapes. Yes I put out some free shapes – they are meant to help someone get started, not to be used. Your shape must be YOU. It needs to make only you happy, not me, not that guy in the place you hang out in, not your best friend. Just you.

Take everything below as a set of tools to help you find yourself, not as me telling you what shape to have. These tools are just how to do ‘human anatomy’ as best as the SL tools let me figure it out – which is not perfect. In art classes they often say that the people who understand anatomy best are the ones who have done amazing changes to it. Like Picasso and Salvador DalΓ­. Knowing what something is like in ‘reality’ lets you make it different in a way that triggers the imagination. So I figure that if you can do human anatomy… then you can change to what you want… rather than being frustrated with an image in your mind that you can’t seem to get to show up on the screen.

I don’t expect you to be ‘the perfect example of human anatomy’. What I do expect is for you to feel “I am so happy with how my avatar looks, it looks exactly as I was imagining.”

Be you. Use this guide just to help find that.

For more information, I have a whole category on this subject, and how to improve your shape.

I have two freebies based on this guide:

For Mesh Body users of the Belleza Freya Body:

The same kit for users of Maitreya:

For default body avatars:

This began as a re-phrasing of a guide posted on the old official forums by Penny Patton, but has taken off from there with my own thoughts and style. The forums have a habit of disappearing or getting buried, so I wanted to make a blog post with the same general advice. I know, only in SL would anyone consider a blog to have more viability of lasting than the actual official forum…

That said, it appears others have been at this even longer than either Penny or I, but with a bit of a different take.

Apart from the issue of proper height in Second Life, over which there is oddly no agreement… most avatars in Second Life have grossly improper proportions.

Proportions are not something you can really debate – you’ve either got them right or you’ve got them wrong and its basic anatomical science over which you have.

But in SL so few people have any artistic or medical training, and the dials for avatar shape editing are grossly improperly adjusted. Proper proportions can often only be achieved by values of under 10 or over 90… if at all. Put simply whoever made the mesh we’re all stuck with had even less artistic training than a pack of kindergarteners. There are ‘free’ meshes in the 3D community that do a better job.

Having good proportions will make your avatar look -AND- animate better. Any motion capture animations in SL were made by… more likely humans than Orangutans or Lemurs. I don’t know… I could be wrong, but I’m going to just guess that the average motion capture studio hires human dancers and not the zoo crew. So if you have human proportions, you’ll animate a little more like the motion capture itself intended (barring the limits of the badly put together SL mesh).

So its time to learn how to ‘dial away from 50’ and get an avatar that looks regardless of height chosen.

You’re going to want to do a few basic things first. Get yourself a pose stand with a T-Pose and an arms at sides pose. You can get my free one at my shop or on Marketplace. Get on it, and go into preferences here and un-check the box for appearance:
Un-check Appearance on the Automatic Position Section.
That will let you switch between appearance editing and prim editing without hopping off the posestand or having your camera move. You can always recheck the box later if desired.

(A careful observer will notice that my avatar started these screenshots slightly out of proportion, and I improve as I work my way down.)

Start by learning your head size:
Head Sized Prim

Take off your hair. Make a prim and size it to be from your chin to the top of your head. Be as accurate as you can be – but human variety is often slightly off of perfection, so don’t sweat too fine of details.

Now find out how many heads tall you are. Take that same prim and copy clone it down until you go past your feet:
7.5 Heads of Height.
You want to be between 7 and 8 heads tall, For a short look you can reach down to 6 or 6 and a half – though you will start looking odd in doing this (and this is not the proper way to make someone who has naturally short stature – that would take more complex adjustments of the SL dials than simply counting heads). Attractive people tend to be closer to 8 heads – even short attractive people, but by contrast Asians who are often considered attractive tend to be on the lower end of the scale. Going above 8 can make you look cartoonish – and on the SL mesh, usually in a bad way. Make your head bigger or smaller until this works out right for you.

The hardest part comes next and it is likely to cause you to have to redo some of the above a few times until it is all just right. Now we need to get your ratio of torso-legs right. Your legs should be half of your height.

Start by finding your current height. Take a prim and stretch it from the soles of your feet to the tip of your head:
Avatar Height
Now cut that prim in half. If you place the new half prim so it starts at the soles of your feet, you want it to reach to your crotch. Good luck because this almost never happens on the first try.
This should go to the top of the crotch, not the base – the image here needs to be corrected.

Now stack a copy of it on top. The top prim should go from your crotch to the top of your head. Sounds easy, but adjusting everything until this works well, takes work.

You need to keep tweaking until you have two equal prims that meet at your crotch. Yes that really is the focal point of the human body and not just because guys keep staring at it:

In tweaking this you’re going to be working with neck length, leg length, and hip length for the most part. Height will adjust overall body height. Torso height may or may not adjust your upper half, it worked for me but I’ve read that it doesn’t work. You can also adjust head size, but do that and you have to start the entire process over again.

Be careful not to give yourself a funny squashed or swan neck. It will be tempting as its one of the easier dials to use to get the ratio right.

Now you should find your body width. Take that head prim and stack a copy of it side by side. Put them over your body:
Body Width
You should be 2 heads wide from arm to arm.
You can see I’m a little thin here.
Keep in mind here that males have broader shoulders than females. For a man adjust shoulders slightly up, for a woman slightly down. Avoid the comical extreme seen on so many SL men. If you ask SL women what makes an attractive male, those extremes are not him (The Bishounen look seems to get the most female interest – if you want to be a lady’s man, go Bishounen with a dapper stylish outfit and use cool artsy backdrops in your screenshots for extra ‘drooling’ factor – just look at any Vampire TV show these days, the lead boys all have Bishy-bodies).

Next comes hand size. One of the major ‘lol’ issues with SL men is tiny hands… How can you tell a noob shape or noob shape maker – look at the hands first. In my screenshots I’m taking off my furry paws for a moment here so you can see this how most of you will deal with it:
Hand Size
You will want your hand from the base of your palm to the tips of your fingers to be the same size as the distance between your chin and midway between your brows and ‘hairline’. I’m guessing my hairline on this one. Again men have slightly thicker hands and women slightly daintier – but use extreme care in deviating here: the hand size slider doesn’t adjust for thick / width / muscle, just size all around. A little bit goes a long way.

Note the comment about thicker versus daintier – this is why all avatars in SecondLife have MAN HANDS… there is no ‘hand muscle / thickness’ slider… so no matter how big or small you go, it will still look mannish. A big mistake many women make is thinking female hands are smaller. They’re not so much smaller overall, as smaller in the muscle / palm / width. The shape is different, and SecondLife doesn’t let you fix that.

Now comes your arm length (wingspan). This is the spot where most of you will revolt and call all this human anatomy stuff bat-crazy nonsense. Your arms from finger tip to finger tip when stretched out in a T-pose, should be the same length as the height of your body. It will look utterly crazy for about 3-5 minutes after you hit save and walk around – but as soon as you ‘get over SL’ for a moment you’ll blink and suddenly realize you look ‘human’ for the first time ever in SL, and then you’ll start noticing all the T-rex people around you. If you just can’t handle the new arm length, dial it down a tiny bit. But chances are this step took your arms to 90-100. If so, don’t go down by more than 10.
Arm Length - Wingspan

Finally do your feet for when barefoot. Make the feet the same size as the length of your forearm. Obviously if you use rigged mesh feet, you’ll be out of luck on this one – but if those feet “look normal enough” this is one area where you can probably get by being a little off.

This should not be correct at foot size 0, but it was for me. I have no idea why.

EDIT: later I found the 0 was working due to some old neko mods I had. After mesh bodies came out, I found for a long time my proper value was closer to 33. On Maitreya you will find it will be close to but not exactly 25 – yet you should use 25 anyway if you wear any shoes made before August of 2020 as before that point Maitreya feet could not be resized, and now that they can ’25’ gives the value of the old system.

That’s your foot size when barefoot. Save this prim under a name like ‘Shoe Size’ in inventory and use it to size any shoes you buy. Making shoes you buy just a little bigger as if they had to fit a foot that size inside them. That’s the real reason to do this last step – to find your shoe size. In my opinion the SL bare-feet look horrid no matter what size you give them…
Foot Size
(The SL foot slider just makes them longer, without making the sole or toes thicker, so feet at proper length actually often look worse than smaller feet – a good argument for going shopping to buy some of those rigged mesh feet. If you noticed the screenshots with darker skin, my 2013 avatar, getting mesh feet is exactly what I have now done.)

Now you can get to work and perfect things like body fat, muscle, facial features, and so on to get a desired look.

Proportions By Age
Everything changes a bit when trying to depict a different age for your avatar. I won’t go into length on that, but just leave you with this chart to look over and think about.

Google Images for Anatomy & Proportion

The SL Avatar Dials and what they do:
(Credit for this goes to What the Fug? – Shaping Up – A Shapes Tutorial: Part 2)

Height – adjusts your overall height
Body Thickness – adjusts the relative width of your body
Body Fat – adjusts all-over body fat

Head Size – adjusts the overall size of your head
Head Stretch – stretches your head vertically.
Head Shape – makes your head more square or more round
Egg Head – adjusts your head to be forehead-heavy versus chin-heavy
Head Length – stretches your head from the back of your head to the front of your face
Face Shear – lifts one side of the face versus the other
Forehead Angle – adjusts the slope of your forehead
Brow Size – adjusts the size and protrusion of your brow
Upper Cheeks – adjusts the puffiness of your upper cheeks
Lower Cheeks – adjusts the hollowness of your lower cheeks
Cheek Bones – adjusts the height of your cheekbones

Eye Size – adjusts the overall size of your eyes
Eye Opening – adjusts the vertical opening of your eyes
Eye Spacing – adjusts the space between your eyes
Outer Eye Corner – lifts and lowers the outer corners of your eyes
Inner Eye Corner – lifts and lowers the inner corners of your eyes
Eye Depth – adjust the depth at which your eyes are sunk into your head
Upper Eyelid Fold – lifts and lowers your upper eyelid
Eye Bags – lowers the “bags” under your eye
Puffy Eyelids – adjusts the puffiness of your eye bags
Eyelash Length – adjusts the system eyelash length (set to “0” for prim lashes)
Eye Pop – adjusts the “pop” of either eye.

Ear Size – adjusts the size of your ears
Ear Angle – adjusts the angle from which your ears stick out from your head
Attached Earlobes – adjusts your earlobes to be attached to your head, or have some separation
Ear Tips – adjusts the tips of your ears to be pointed or not

Nose Size – adjusts the size of your nose, extending it out from your face
Nose Width – adjusts the width of your nose at tip mostly
Nostril Width – adjusts the width of your nostrils
Nostril Division – adjusts the length of your septum
Nose Thickness – adjusts how bulbous your nose is
Upper Bridge – adjusts the length out from your face of your nose between your eyes
Lower Bridge – adjusts the length out from your face of your nose above your nose tip
Bridge Width – adjusts the width of your nose between and just below your eyes
Nose Tip Angle – adjusts the upturn ot downturn of your nose
Nose Tip Shape – adjusts the size/shape of your nose tip to be pinched or bulbous
Crooked Nose – adjusts your nose to be shifted from one side to another

Lip Width – adjusts the overall width of your mouth
Lip Fullness – adjusts the size/fullness of your lips
Lip Thickness – adjusts the protrusion/puffiness of your lips
Lip Ratio – adjusts the ratio of lower lip to upper lip
Mouth Position – adjusts the position of your mouth vertically
Mouth Corner – adjusts the corners of your mouth to be upturned or down turned
Lip Cleft Depth – adjusts the depth of your lip cleft (the indentation beneath your septum and the points of your upper lip on either side)
Lip Cleft – adjusts the width of your lip cleft
Shift Mouth – shifts your mouth position from left to right

Chin Angle – adjusts your chin to be drawn in or jut out
Jaw Shape – adjusts your jaw to be pointed or squared
Chin Depth – adjusts the depth (or height) of your chin
Jaw Angle – adjusts the height of your jawline
Jaw Jut – adjusts your “under bite”
Jowls – adjusts your jawline to give it more or less “jowls” (cheek sag)
Chin Cleft – creates a cleft in your chin
Upper Chin Cleft – gives your chin a more square appearance
Chin-Neck – adjusts the underneath of your chin to be more or less saggy

Torso Muscles – adjusts your all-over torso to have a more or less bulky appearance
Neck Thickness – adjusts the thickness/width of your neck
Neck Length – adjusts the length/height of your neck
Shoulders – adjusts how broad your shoulders are
(F)Breast Size – adjusts the size of your breasts
(F)Breast Buoyancy – adjusts the gravitational “sag” of your breasts
(F)Breast Cleavage – adjusts your cleavage, moving your breasts closer together or further apart
(M)Pectorals – adjusts the size/protrusion of a man’s pectoral muscles
Arm Length – adjusts the length of your arms
Hand Size – adjusts your hand size
Torso Length – adjusts the length of your torso (this does not affect height)
Love Handles – adjusts the thickness of your waist
Belly Size – adjusts the size of your belly (useful for creating a pregnant shape)

Leg Muscles – adjusts your legs to give them a more or less bulky appearance
Leg Length – adjusts the length of your legs
Hip Width – adjusts the width of your hips and creates space between your thighs
Hip Length – adjusts the length of your hips/butt
Butt Size – adjusts the size of your butt (abuse of this slider leads to “watermelon ass”)
(M)Package – adjusts the size of a man’s crotch bulge
Saddle Bags – adjusts the “thickness” of your hips
Knee Angle – can be used to give one a more or less knock-kneed appearance
Foot Size – adjusts the size of one’s feet

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